‘All Reality Is Interaction’ with Carlo Rovelli.

abstract close up cobweb connection
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All reality is Interaction’ is the title of a conversation with physicist Carlo Rovelli, recorded before the COVID 19 pandemic. In this extract, Rovelli talks with Krista Tippett about complexity, the fragility of civilisation and the value of our life together.

Krista Tippett: you have a sense of the complexity of reality and the cosmos that is so far beyond our senses. So here’s the question: How does this change the way you move through the world? Is this something you’re able to work with?

Carlo Rovelli: Well, I don’t know if I’m able, but I do [laughs] work with it. The idea that our senses can mislead us — this idea, it’s very old. It goes back to antiquity; in fact, it’s the key idea of a good part of Greek philosophy. Some philosophers took it even too strongly, saying we shouldn’t believe at all what our senses say; reality is completely different. Nowadays, of course, we rely on what we see, but we have learned, and I think we have learned deeply, that we are like children. Namely, we start with a naïve idea about the world; we start with a naïve vision about the world; and then, slowly, we learn more. We learn more because we grow. Like children grow, so society has grown, civilization has grown — and has grown by learning from experience, from other people, from books, from experiments, from all sorts of stuff.

And what we have learned is, as you say, the complexity. The world is much more complex than what it looks at first sight. I look at this glass of water, and it’s just quite transparent, but I know that, in fact, it’s a crazy zig-zagging of molecules down there, which do all sorts of stuff, and how fast they move the temperature, and so on and so forth. And this complexity, which is at all levels, guards us from being driven by too-simple-minded things. I think we should keep in mind that the world is complex. We have a good way of dealing with the world, right? Society works. Civilization works. We are alive, and we’re seven billion of us on Earth, and many more than before. And in fact, we are actually more of us on Earth which are out of deep poverty and have education and things to live, much more than in the past, so we’re not doing too bad.

But at the same time, we know that this knowledge we have, it’s fragile, and we don’t have full knowledge at all. Nothing guarantees that we do better tomorrow, at all. We’re not guaranteed by anything. Civilization could stop tomorrow. The Earth is becoming warmer, and it could be a catastrophe. We are too many on Earth, and this might lead to other catastrophes. And worst of all, we are fighting against us more and more, and this could get more catastrophe. So there is a sense of fragility, which I do have, both in the — I don’t think I know the truth. I think I know a little bit about the world, and I know deeply that I have no access to any final truth, to any absolute truth. I know deeply that my brain is limited; it’s something I understand. Sometimes I feel I understand better than somebody else, and sometimes, no, I feel that somebody else understands better than me. And I know that my life is limited. I have a certain number of years to live, and that’s it. Maybe humanity itself has a limited life. I don’t think there’s anything that guarantees us beyond that. Can we live this — with this uncertainty? Can we live with this fragility? I think we do, and we can. And even more, I think —

abstract close up cobweb connection
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To read or hear the whole interview go to Onbeing

Prof Richard Davidson on the plasticity of the brain and the positive effects of meditation.


Here is the link to an OnBeing podcast interview with neuroscientist Prof Richard Davidson. He has worked on the plasticity of the brain and the positive effects of meditation. Davidson talks here with Krista Tippett about how mind, body and emotions are more closely integrated than we conventionally understand them. He also refers to research showing a human predisposition towards kindness.

My Buddhist colleagues and I have been talking about these issues in relation to our various meditation programmes – Mindfulness, Buddhist and Christian meditation – that we offer each week.

There is more discussion of research studies in the  long unedited version of the interview, which is not the one with the transcript.

Full link



‘Celebrating the vocation to science,engineering, medicine and business’

Here is the text of a sermon I preached at the Choral Evensong this week sung by Imperial College Chamber Choir in Holy Trinity Church, South Kensington. The questions for pondering about vocations in work or volunteering that were in the service sheet are at the end of the post.


The theme of this evenings service is ‘Celebrating the vocation to science, engineering, medicine and business.’

My conversations as a Chaplain with students and staff are often about what people enjoy in their work, the challenges and problems. It’s also often about whether their work is a good fit with how they see their skills and experiences. I want to continue these conversations tonight with a few reflections about vocation and calling.

‘Calling’ is a term that is applied to some professions – medicine, nursing teaching. But I would like to extend it to cover most work. Some of the features of a calling or vocation might be;

  • a sense of the work being a good fit with our skills and abilities;
  • service to others
  • making the world ordered, safe or more connected
  • bringing creativity to bear on problems
  • the need for determination
  • application over time


These features could all apply to work within business, engineering, administration, and support as much as in medicine or ordained ministry in the church.

Reflection on our calling might also be about discerning how to keep going at a role or project when times are tough. It could be about learning when to look for new direction in work or how to let a deep passion and interest flourish outside work.

Events can shape these decisions. For example. George Dyson who composed the music for parts of tonight’s service, was a soldier during World War One. He wrote a pamphlet about the use of grenades in warfare before suffering with shell shock. After the war he followed a career in music eventually becoming the Director of the Royal College of Music across the road. Following a calling and finding a vocation is often not straightforward. George Dyson, for all his success as a musician once applied to be the organist of this Church – unsuccessfully!

There is encouragement in many of the Bible stories. There is often a sense of unexpected people being called. So, David the youngest son who has to be fetched from tending the sheep when the next king of Israel is being chosen from among his brothers. It is David who becomes the greatest king of Israel.  Saul was persecuting the new followers of Jesus when he hears his call during his conversion on the road to Damascus. He then becomes Paul, one of Jesus’ most dedicated followers. The idea is that others, including God, might see things in us that we cannot see ourselves, and that there is more to be called out from within us.

All this is talk about vocation and calling is against the background that most of us have to work by necessity to provide shelter food and warmth for ourselves and our families.

Sometimes our passions outside of work might be our calling. In the 19th century this was called an ‘avocation’ – a pursuit followed with passion and determination over time that fits our skills and the deep sense of who we are. Examples of avocation that I know include an IT technician who draws with great skill, medics who sing and compose music, a guy who works in a factory and who does amazing youth work in the evening.

Olivier Messiaen the composer of our last anthem tonight had a lifelong interest in birdsong and birds. His passion for ornithology often led to the sounds of birdsong being incorporated into his compositions.

The Canticles, the Song of Mary and the Song of Simeon, are sung at every evensong and also speak of ‘calling’ (and thanks to George Dyson for the musical setting for these tonight). These Canticles are the songs of a young woman accepting a calling, and of an old man who finally sees his calling come to fulfilment. For Mary it’s the beginning of intimacy with Christ. For Simeon it is the practice of looking out for Christ in daily life.

The readings we are going to hear from Isaiah and Matthew set work in the context of God’s love. For Isaiah it is a love that leads to the practical justice where everyone gets to enjoy the fruits of their work. In Matthew we hear the call to set our minds above all on the values of God’s kingdom.

To help our reflection tonight there are some questions to ponder from John Adair, an army officer and management consultant. The questions are around vocation or calling in the widest sense. They might be good ways to reflect on our work or how we might slowly recognise the emerging call to new projects or commitments.

My God’s spirit of wisdom be present in all our reflections tonight. Amen.

Old Testament Reading: Isaiah 65:20-23

New Testament Reading: Matthew 6:24-34



Text from the service sheet.


Reflecting on Vocation

During the service you might like to look at the questions below.

Which question captures your attention the most?

Which one is ‘the question to live with’ for a period of time?


Do you feel a long-term commitment to your present occupation or field of work?

Has anyone used the adjective ‘dedicated’ to describe you or the way you go about your work or voluntary work?

Do you feel that your abilities match the requirements of your particular role?

Can you think of another profession, trade or field that you would rather be in?

Does your present work give you scope for creativity?

Are you always seeking new and better ways of doing things?

Have you discovered work or volunteering that you can be really enthusiastic about, in spite of its ups and downs?

Has your enthusiasm for your work or volunteering been tested and sustained over a period of years?

Do you have a sense of being, as it were, at the call of your work, and through your work to others?

Are you learning about yourself through your work or volunteering?

Is there something else you would rather be doing that gives life to others?

What helps you keep going?

(adapted from John Adair’s ‘How to find your vocation: a guide to discovering the work you love’)




Trauma and Resilience Land in Our Bodies

strand of barbed wire against a meadowThis is more of a long listen than a long read but you can do both thanks to the On Being website.

I have listened to this podcast conversation between Krista Tippett and Prof Bessel van der Kolk three times and am not done yet. I am fascinated by the interest of neuroscience in our experiences of our own bodies.

In the chaplaincy at Imperial we are not working with people with severe traumas. But many students and staff tell us that they come with high levels of anxiety, fatigue or diagnosed depression. Many have been referred by the Student Counselling and Mental Health Advice Service or the psychotherapy team at the university medical centre.

For all of us practicing meditation there is a whole turn towards paying attention to the sensations of being ‘in our bodies’. Seems obvious, but as van der Kolk puts it “Western culture is astoundingly disembodied and uniquely so.”

I used to be a human being too.


“An endless bombardment of news and gossip and images has rendered us manic information addicts. It broke me. It might break you, too.”


Here is a very long read by Andrew Sullivan.  He starts by describing how he detoxed from constant digital activity and distraction. Things had got serious (the full url for the article  is “technology nearly killed me”).

Sullivan describes learning to meditate and use mindfulness. He gives a good description of the process of slowing down and moving away from his frenetic online life. I think this will resonate with many of us. It is something we have conversations about in chaplaincy work with students and staff.

What surprised me, coming after this description of Mindfulness, was  his complaint about the lack of silence in contemporary Christian worship. Fair point. If you are interested in Christian mediation and contemplation keep going to the end!

This is a good long reflection on what silence, presence and connection could mean in the digital age.

The article first appeared in the New Yorker Magazine on 18th September 2016.

Long reads

I want to share some longer articles that I and my colleagues at the Imperial College Multi-Faith Centre are finding useful.

While much of what we read digitally are bite size posts, news items and tweets, here are some long reads (and long listens) that ask for our time and attention. No ‘listicles’ here!

“When we pray for our enemies… we are also less able to demonize another human being.”

“I used to be a human being too.” by Andrew Sullivan.